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June 06, 2007



Just a note WRT to the "Cobra" manuever done by Russian aircraft (or at least the Su-37) - this tears up their engines. They essentially have to replace them after this.

Peter Rutten


But what is the Su-37 oilots decide NOT to use their electronic equipment and have acces to equipment that can detect emissions of the F-22. After all, any radio or radar emits. Without a return signal there is no way to know the presence of an aircraft. This would negate the long distance advantage of the F-22. On the short range the visual or infra red spectrum becomes more important.

So it seems that the effectiveness of the F-22 is much dependent on the opponent not detecting any emissions of the F-22. That seems to me a rather shaky assumption.

It seems that this kind of warfare is more evolving in 'the first one to emit (anything) is being shot at by a sneaker.

So it would more look like the submarine warfare of sneaking around till the next guy makes a mistake.

So it seems that Stealth is usefull but rather overvalued. The trick it seems is to have sensors outside any strike range of the opponent. The scenario it seems for the oposition would be to knock out AWACS and other AEW assets as quick as possible at an as long distance as possible. This would negate quite a bit of the network info adanvantage and reduce much of the fighting to a close in knife fight where infra red quided missiles and guns are of more importance than long range radar guided ordnance.

How impressive the F-22 may look, I would not put all my money on a safe bet myself. It would be unwise not to expect the opponent try to find new tactics to negate the F-22 advantages.

Bill Sweetman

Just to clarify that I'm not the Bill in the above post. The fact that the Su-27 family engines keep running at peculiar angles is not an accident. TsAGI developed a special ground rig to test an inlet/engine combo at simulated high alpha/low speed conditions.

dave fulghum

Remember, the F-22 has a low-probability of intercept, active electronically scanned radar that can see the bad guys at hundreds of miles away. It also gets fed data from space and large platform sensors elsewhere in the airspace. The radar is also designed to detect small and stealthy targets with its 1000-element array. And if the battle were to reach the IR and visual range and the F-22 has already shot off its Aim-120 AMRAAMs, it will have a couple of Aim9X missiles which may be the best IR missile in the world. The British and the Israelis have some good new products, but the worry would be Russian and Chinese designs that are on the world market. Fighter pilots are cocky, but both U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots say that at least for the moment they aren't losing any sleep about the foreign designs they've been briefed on.

Peter Rutten

The AESA radar will give anyone a much better chance in a confrontation. And I would presume that currently the state of technology is superior in the F-22. But these kinds of radars are already proliferating quickly. And I would expect that that also holds true for improved methods to detect the emissions from these radars. The problem is not with countries such as Korea or Iran. These kind of countries do have neither strategic depth nor the money to build an competing defense network. We could even beat them using the (sort of) venerable F-15 and F-16 fleet.

But if I am not too badly informed Russia did put considerable effort in anti satelite warefare and it has some specific designed AAM ordance specially intended to attack AEW assets on very long distance. I also heard that a number of Russian short range AAM designs, in particular the IR missiles are not really inferior to western designs. And if Russia has it, China will have it soon. China too is working on things like anti sattelite warfare.

Looking back in the past conflicts it shows that although quality was an important issue the USA always depended on sheer power of numbers to win conflicts.

All well to have the best aircraft (if that is indeed the case) but if it is soo incredibly expensive we can afford only a few of them it means that just a few lucky shots or unconventional attacks (fe commando raids) will degrade airpower soo quickly it really does not matter. Numbers do count even if you have the better quality ac!

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